Tony Ferguson will also do a nitro Finish. I had him use it on the neck of
my last Electric (pictured below). His number is 616-842-4114
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| Subbing out Nitro finish?? http://www-.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10102&t=5133 |
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| Author: | af_one [ Thu Feb 16, 2006 11:47 am ] |
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Is there anyine out that is doing nitro finishes that I can send a guitar too for finishing--I have not built mine yet, but I'v been following all the threads on finihses and it occured to me that maybe theres someone spraying daily? Is it cost prohibitive?? |
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| Author: | tippie53 [ Thu Feb 16, 2006 11:51 am ] |
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West Coast Addam Stark East Coast Dale Bartholamew |
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| Author: | John Mayes [ Thu Feb 16, 2006 11:57 am ] |
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Tony Ferguson will also do a nitro Finish. I had him use it on the neck of my last Electric (pictured below). His number is 616-842-4114
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| Author: | Rod True [ Thu Feb 16, 2006 11:57 am ] |
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[QUOTE=af_one]maybe theres someone spraying daily?[/QUOTE] Depends on how long you can wait. Most of these guys have a long wait list I would think, maybe a month or more. [QUOTE=af_one]Is it cost prohibitive??[/QUOTE] Depends on how much you have. I think the going rate to finish is between $300-$400. Depends on how many voids there are and probably other things that I don't know about. Personally, I think it is important to learn all aspects of this craft. Even if you have to wait till early summer to spray outside, you could still do the nitro finish yourself. |
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| Author: | Sylvan [ Thu Feb 16, 2006 12:42 pm ] |
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I think I might create a firestorm here but it seems to me that if you really want to be called a luthier you have to know all aspects of this craft and, that includes the finishing. Your instruments should reflect all of your work not someone else's. I personally believe finishing is more than 50% of the finished product and it is imperative that a real luthier learn how to do it and do it well. So, I guess as long as the finishing is farmed out there will be guitarmakers and luthiers. |
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| Author: | John Mayes [ Thu Feb 16, 2006 12:52 pm ] |
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oh brother.... |
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| Author: | Brock Poling [ Thu Feb 16, 2006 1:08 pm ] |
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[QUOTE=Sylvan] I think I might create a firestorm here but it seems to me that if you really want to be called a luthier you have to know all aspects of this craft and, that includes the finishing. Your instruments should reflect all of your work not someone else's. I personally believe finishing is more than 50% of the finished product and it is imperative that a real luthier learn how to do it and do it well. So, I guess as long as the finishing is farmed out there will be guitarmakers and luthiers.[/QUOTE] Yeah, you are right... it will probably create a firestorm... 
However, I live in the suburbs on a sub 1/4 acre lot. I have shot nitro in my front yard, but I can tell you that the neighbors and their kids were none too excited about it. 
I realize FP is an option, and so is brushing.... but I like the look of a sprayed on finish. I don't care what the substance is, there is just no way to spray in the house. |
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| Author: | Tom Dowey [ Thu Feb 16, 2006 1:34 pm ] |
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I second the, oh brother... |
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| Author: | Rod True [ Thu Feb 16, 2006 3:04 pm ] |
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Now, I don't fully agree with Sylvan about the guitar builder/luthier thing. There are many luthiers who know nothing about banjo's, fiddles, chello's, upright bass', heck even all acoustic pianos have strings doesn't mean that we should all be called chello builders and not luthiers. There are many builders who don't do any sort of repair work either and vise versa. Aren't we all luthiers according to the recent post we had on the subject. My first build I had someone finish for me and I was happy to pay the $400 clams for it. The second and third guitars were both crap as far as the finish goes, but I am determind to get it right on the forth. I do think it's important to try it at some point. I recall that for many, there is a time frame involved with building and subbing out the finish helps build more guitars per year. Don't know if Jim Olson subs out his finishing but I've heard he has switch to poly so the wait is much less. If anyone feels that they can get a better finish on their guitars by subbing it out, that's great. I seem to recall John Mayes saying something like this in the DVD thread. Said he just couldn't get it like Tony or Andy or who ever, so his product becomes better this way. |
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| Author: | Serge Poirier [ Thu Feb 16, 2006 3:27 pm ] |
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Amateur luthier, guitar maker, luthier apprentice, luthier wannabe, Heck i know one thing in my heart that no one here could ever take away from me: i built 1 guitar and i finished it poorly, but, i consider myself as a luthier in perpetual training! And what if you were good at making the best sounding guitars but you'd always suck at finishing and would prefer to hand over your guitars to the pros of finishing ? Okay you'd say you're not an accomplished luthier but i'd say you're still one! Serge |
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| Author: | John Mayes [ Thu Feb 16, 2006 3:49 pm ] |
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No I did my own finishes for years, and used everything from waterbased, to nitro, to urethane, ect. I CAN get as good as a finish as anyone I know it just takes too long for me to do it. I'm not fast at it..in fact I'm dang slow at it. It's not that I can't do it but that it's much more economical for me to sub it out. Plus after only 70 guitars or so finished by me (about 75% of them Nitro) even with a mask, and booth that had fresh air running through it all the time via big fans, and a full wall filter I would be breathing rough after a full day's spraying guitars. I'd rather not subject myself to that. If that makes me, as well as MANY other VERY respected guys/gals in the business (MUCH more well known than me...not that I'm well known by any means, but...) just "guitar builders" and not "luthiers" in Slyvans eyes... well I really don't care. Good thing he is not the one who has the right to say who is what....in fact no one has that right. Now I do think everyone should at least learn how to do it, but if you choose not to do it for either financial, personal, or health reasons then more power to you...I don't think that makes you less of a builder. What matters is what you get from the experience not what other people want to classify you as. |
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| Author: | Rod True [ Thu Feb 16, 2006 5:06 pm ] |
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Sorry John, no disrespect intended. Just didn't have my facts straight. Time is money. You need both to succeed. [QUOTE=John Mayes]What matters is what you get from the experience not what other people want to classify you as.[/QUOTE] Well said John. |
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| Author: | Red Ennis [ Thu Feb 16, 2006 9:54 pm ] |
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I would hate to put my heart and soul into building the perfect guitar and then screw it up with a sucky finish. |
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| Author: | tippie53 [ Thu Feb 16, 2006 10:03 pm ] |
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I agree that a luthier needs to know all aspects of building , but sometimes the economics is that is is best to sub out. I have a small spray area but I am now building in lots of 4 at a time , and to be honest I don't have the time to spray seal fill rub polish. The work Dale does is superb , he is after all very experienced as he worked full time in the finish dept at Martin. SOmetimes things do work out better this way. Now I don't have the worry of explosion and health problems of the lacquer process. I love to finish but I do better to sub this out. john hall blues creek guitars |
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| Author: | KenMcKay [ Thu Feb 16, 2006 11:07 pm ] |
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. |
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| Author: | KenMcKay [ Thu Feb 16, 2006 11:21 pm ] |
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[QUOTE=Sylvan] I think I might create a firestorm here but it seems to me that if you really want to be called a luthier you have to know all aspects of this craft and, that includes the finishing. Your instruments should reflect all of your work not someone else's. I personally believe finishing is more than 50% of the finished product and it is imperative that a real luthier learn how to do it and do it well. So, I guess as long as the finishing is farmed out there will be guitarmakers and luthiers.[/QUOTE] Respectfully disagree! I don't know why I am getting involved in this except I see it as an appeal to a false standard. It may even result in an over the top attempt to meet the standard set by such a high quality builder (such as Sylvan) thus leading to deleterious health problems. Why is a guitarmaker any less than a luthier? Does the musician recieving the instrument care? No! No! Make your instruments best you can... farm the finish if you choose... you don't need to explain to anyone...if asked, make the statement "I have Fred Finisher do my finishing, good job huh" I assure you you will not get a second look. I know of at 3 "luthiers" who quit building because of health issues. |
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| Author: | John Kinnaird [ Thu Feb 16, 2006 11:35 pm ] |
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Anyway, the term luthier was a label only given in the past to string instrument makers who exhibited proficiency in making at least 5 different kinds of instruments. Probably most of us are guitar makers by that old standard. But, even Stradavarious farmed out a lot of his violin building to specialists. I doubt he carved many scrolls. There were scroll specialist who would carve 6 or 7 in a day and most master violin makers used their services. As John M says, it was cost effective. I think there is some carryover from this example to this conversation. I know I don't feel at all bad about farming out my finishes. John |
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| Author: | Arnt Rian [ Fri Feb 17, 2006 12:43 am ] |
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You know, when I read things like this I can't help thinking there is no wonder there are wars in the world! I am also happy there aren't instrument maker's guilds any more, where what you can and cannot do is dictated, and you receive titles accordingly. If people choose to let others do parts of the process for them for whatever reason, who cares. They should be able to do that without being judged or get condescending remarks. Who's got the right to decide who should be titled what, and who cares about titles anyways? I like to do my own finishing, but that's just me. My finishes aren't great, but then I'm in this more for the process and the curiosity, less for the production and the result. If I tire of it, I will not think twice about sourcing it out (if I could find somebody good reasonably nearby, not very likely). |
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| Author: | old man [ Fri Feb 17, 2006 1:44 am ] |
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I agree with all the Norwegians on this forum. Well said Arnt. I also do understand where Sylvan is coming from, and appreciate that purist attitude. Ron |
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| Author: | Robbie O'Brien [ Fri Feb 17, 2006 3:32 am ] |
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many of the so called "master" classical builders of the past century also farmed out their finishing. |
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| Author: | Michael Dale Payne [ Fri Feb 17, 2006 4:00 am ] |
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I think the main reason many of us do not farm out finish to the pro's is the cost. There is little doubt that someone who specializes in finishes will be more proficient than someone that has to do all aspects of the building process as a whole. Of course I am not saying that many are not great finishers as well as great builders. Now a point of view from a manufacturing engineer's prospective. My company went into a venture with a company in China to build a specific size pumping unit. One we sell a lot of. The Idea was to help free up our manufacturing capabilities here in the US for other size and model units. As the five year venture has turned out, the base unit price for those units is 5% cheaper delivered from China. Now the other side of that coin is we are having to replace a vast majority of the bearing assemblies on these units. The problem is not the manufacture in china but the metallurgy of the bearings they get. After the wash is hung out to dry, the cost turns out to be close to the same as if we built them here in the states after the rework time is charged. However We have still freed up our manufacturing here to build other units and models, which in return has expanded our market share. My point is if you farm out work be sure that you are considering all aspects of farming out. It is very easy to miss unexpected related cost. Be sure the craftsman you chose is competent and the materials he uses are first rate. |
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| Author: | HankMauel [ Fri Feb 17, 2006 5:10 am ] |
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[QUOTE=terken] I just visited Jim Olson's shop. He sprays his own UV cured poly and has a very cool curing booth where the guitar rotates and the UV lights move up and down. He said he switched to Poly because of the fumes in his shop from the off gassing of nitro finished instruments. His whole operation makes your head spin. Terry Kennedy[/QUOTE] And did you get a price quote for a system like that? It's a bit of change for the "average" luthier amongst us, but dang, I'd sure like one! Also, there is some risk in the UV light system. You need to be totally covered, or isolated from the rays. Skin and eyeballs don't take kindly to that intense concentration. But dang, I'd sure like one! 
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| Author: | Scott Thompson [ Fri Feb 17, 2006 6:24 am ] |
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Kerfed lining, slotted and radiused fretboards, premade jigs, radius dishes, precut binding, precut and radiused endblocks, farmed out finish, etc…Everyone has a reason for their choices. Make your own informed choices and be honest to yourself and your customers about it and make up your own mind about the validity of the criticism. Do what you feel in your heart to be right, for you'll be criticized anyway. ~ Anna Eleanor Roosevelt To escape criticism -- do nothing, say nothing, be nothing. ~ Elbert Hubbard |
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